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  • #41896

    MadarameBK
    Participant


    Replies: 3
    Topics: 1
    Join date: 2014/04/08

    I’m creating an assisting tool using mindmapping software which looks like below for the “comrades” who are having hard times with 6-max game.
    (You can see the picture)
    It’s still a draft, and there were couple things that were not making sense from the e-book for me, so I will like to ask few questions to finalize the assisting tool.

    Section Pre-flop

    1) MP Action Charts vs CO 3-bet> It seems that QQ is missing . I suppose they should be in Calling range, correct?
    2) BB Action Charts vs SB Open raise > K8s exists both in the Calling Range AND the 3-bet/Fold Range. I believe that calling range is correct, and remove K8s from the 3-bet fold range, right?

    Section Post Flop
    Turn
    Aggressor :
    3) It states that “If your opponent raises your bet you should fold everything unless you have a pair+FD or top 2 pair” now should I assume the ones that are not folding (pair+FD or top 2 pair (I’m sure there should be + after top 2 pair but.. ) should be Calling to the raise? or Re-Raising?
    4) It also states ” If you have re-raised the flop, bet again and get it all-in unless there is a 4-straight or 4-flush board. ” However, in the flop section you have already mentioned to “if you get raised, then re-raise and get it all-in with 2 pair or better” … Maybe I am misinterpreting, but when you say re-raise and get it all in , don’t you men re-raise shove? or am I mistaking this? If I’m not mistaking this, then the above turn situation would never happen because you have already shoved. If re-raise and get it all in doesn’t mean that and if it means “prepare to go all-in” (sorry my English is second language), then what should the re-raise bet size be?
    5) the document mention “If you got checkraised on the flop and called and your opponent bets again on the turn you should fold unless you have a TP with an Ace or King kicker. Now on the Flop you mention to call the raise with TP, OESDs, and FDs. Does this mean the draws given up on a Turn? (unless minibet where you can call with your whole range again as you have stated)
    6) Now there is one situation that is not mentioned which is if you get checkraised on the flop and he doesn’t bet the turn, in this case what to do? pretend you are aggressor?

    Turn
    Caller

    7) it says ” Multiway, fold everything that is not 2 pair or better. Call with OESD and FD” From the context of the sentence I’m assuming to raise with 2 Pair or better?

    3Bet Pot

    Flop
    Aggressor

    8)You mention same rules like in the single raised pot. Now on the single raised pot you mention to bet 3/4 as your standard. Is the bet size standard on 3 bet pot to be 3/4 then? unless otherwise stated?

    9) When you mention “Call with gutshot, 2nd pair, OESD, FD and top pair” and “Raise with better hands and get it all-in” .. Now does AA,KK type overpair fit in to “Better hands” or “Top pair” section?

    Miscellaneous

    10) On single raised Pot, you are aggressor, you have instructed as following: A) always if you have a gutshot or better, C-Bet. B) C-bet 3/4 if you ahve oesd, fd, tp, or better hand, and 1/2 with other hands. C) If your strength is worse than a gutshot, (overcards, underpair) you can bet only on very dry boards. Now I’m assuming 2nd/3rd pair fit in the category of 1/2 bet size right? they are better than the gutshot, but they are not in the rank of tp… Just to make sure.

    11) This has nothing to do with the chart, but why is Gutshot better than Overcards? The outs are better with Overcards than gutshot… is it because when we hit it we have a very strong hand with gutshot that you value gutshot better than overcards?

    The following is the draft of the chart I’m making , once the questions are answered I can fully complete it, organize with color for each street and such , and I am going to share this with the members here… so it will be very helpful if you can help me finish it by answering the questions. I know you might be annoyed by asking stupid questions but I just wanted to make sure and I’m sure others may have questions from time to time.

    Sorry for asking stupid questions. Thanks in advance.

    NO BS 6-max assisting Tool

    #41899

    MadarameBK
    Participant


    Replies: 3
    Topics: 1
    Join date: 2014/04/08

    Oh and additionally 12) When you are the caller and the villain has missed c-bet, the e-book mentions if you are IP, Bet 1/2 pot and pretend you are aggressor. If he checks behind on the flop then Bluff both turn/river with 3/4 Pot size. Now <if the villain checked on the turn it mentions to bet any hand>, and if he checks behind on the turn it says to bluff any river. The question is between the <> part. I would assume by the whole context, if you are IP and the villain checks back to you on the Turn, and you don’t have anything, I will assume to Bluff Turn AND Bluff River… Correct? I wasn’t sure because it didn’t mention it clearly in the e-book.

    Thanks in advance.

    #41900

    Nate
    Keymaster
    Head Coach

    Replies: 1375
    Topics: 5
    Join date: 2019/09/11

    Great work!

    When we offer group coaching, ask me all of those questions. It would take me 30min to one hour to answer. My general little rule on forum question is 5min max in order to be fair to students who pay for full hour 1-1 coaching.

    Practical hands will ALWAYS get answered. Keep posting, perhaps show practical hands where those questions apply.

    I’ll keep an eye on you bc we need more people like you who do good work!

    #41907

    fiddlesticks
    Participant


    Replies: 119
    Topics: 5
    Join date: 2011/07/22

    Hey, love what you’ve done so far, can’t wait to see the finished product !
    I guess the best thing to do now is discuss some of your questions as a group and see what we come up with – hopefully if we get it badly wrong gordon will offer a little guidance πŸ™‚

    So here’s my input for tonight

    Point 3 (hand example)
    Poker Stars $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold’em – 6 players – http://www.handconverter.com/hands/2471251
    The DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

    Hero (BTN): $2.02
    SB: $2.62
    BB: $1.99
    UTG: $7.79
    MP: $1.11
    CO: $1.77

    Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BTN with Ac 7c
    3 folds, Hero raises to $0.04, 1 fold, BB calls $0.02

    Flop: ($0.09) 7h 6h As (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero bets $0.06, BB calls $0.06

    Turn: ($0.21) Js (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero bets $0.14, BB raises to $0.55, Hero ?

    Cannot get PT4 hands to post correctly πŸ™ Anyway, calling here if there’s no FD, raising when there is ?

    Point 4

    Maybe I am misinterpreting, but when you say re-raise and get it all in , don’t you men re-raise shove?

    I guess he means raise, re-raise and be prepared to get it in. As for sizing raise (3bet) 3.5x, re-raise (4bet) 2.5x

    I try post a few more thoughts tomorrow, my internet is acting up badly tonight πŸ™

    #41914

    fiddlesticks
    Participant


    Replies: 119
    Topics: 5
    Join date: 2011/07/22

    Well that went well….
    Try again tomorrow when I’m not getting constants disconnects

    #41916

    MadarameBK
    Participant


    Replies: 3
    Topics: 1
    Join date: 2014/04/08

    Gordon, I understand about your policy, but IMO it’s good idea if you can answer the above questions because if the purpose of the E-book was to have a “idot proof that 4 year old can execute” , we need the basic rules completed. Now i’m not referring to a specific hand situation,I didn’t go start asking bet sizes, opponent tendencies, etc. I just wanted you to fill the missing part in the general guideline written in the E-book. Thus, the purpose of the e-bbok would be incomplete IMO if the above question is not solved. Frankly speaking I do have my own interpretation on your line written in e-book (as I have stated above “I wiould assume”…) Honestly speaking I really don’t need you to answer them in the forum. If you can fill in those missing parts and update the E-book as you mentioned in the E-book that you will keep updating. But currently, in any point, if the e-book was to be somewhat solid completed, I believe it will need those above informations.. (not to mention some of them are errors like Q1, and Q2). Now if you still keep your policy then I’m gonna have to talk to Alexa to arrange for possible coaching. What do you think?

    #41973

    HansTheGreat
    Participant
    CFP FINISHER

    Replies: 1825
    Topics: 52
    Join date: 2013/01/23

    Hi MadarameBK,

    The questions are pointed to Gordon but I think I might help and give some thoughts since I used/use a lot of the NO 6max BS guidelines. First I think you made a very nice work and congrats to that. Looks like you can program a boot once you finished it:) .

    But keep in mind that the NO 6max BS is a generalization of things and can’t answer all spots that you find in game especially if you know/see some tendencies of your opponents and the board texture(understand relative hand strength in a given situation + positions) + it’s sometimes pot odds dependent. Otherwise poker would be solved. Some of your questions are extremely board texture dependent but still I will try to answer. Gordon can of course correct me if he thinks I answered something wrong:

    1) You’re right it goes into the C range.
    2)K8s goes into the 3B/F range.
    3)Pair+FD or Pair+OESD(no FD on board) it’s always a C if pot odds are reasonable. T2P is harder to answer and in general extremely related to board texture and some rare time not even a C or R but rather a F.
    4)Yeah most likely a technical mistake but also states the fact that your opponent might C your re-R/3B. In general your 3B size should be so big in SRP that you can shove OTT without overB. Again on some board texture 3B shoving might be the best sizing.
    5) Again depends on the strength of your draw and the pot odds you get not to talk about stack sizes. But generally speaking if you have a FD+overs or OESD+overs(board without FD) and he has 1/2 stack behind you should be able to C
    6) Again understanding relative hand strength + stack size+board texture+pot odds is key here. But I guess you can B/F TP, B/C or B/F your draws as general.
    7) Yeah pretty much R although again understanding relative hand strength/board texture is key here(some boards 2P is almost 1P)
    8) Pretty much besides that 2ndP should B 1/2PSB IMO but anything TP+ should be B 3/4PSB.
    9)I don’t understand that because your not C as aggressor You mean when somebody R you in a 3BP? overP 3BP fits into ”better hands”/stack off category.
    10) Exactly.
    11) This is not about what’s necessary better in terms of EQ but rather a sort of limitation. Because if you always start CB overcards which will frequently happen you will CB more then if you restrict with GS+. And of top of that if you hit your GS you will win bigger pots mostly then if you hit your overcards.
    12)I didn’t understand that. You mean he X/C as PFA ? If so you just continue on B again if the conditions for a T B are met and give up everything else.

    I hope I could help but again please keep in mind that it’s extremely hard to fit all the possible scenarios in a book. GL!

    #42347

    Javirap
    Participant


    Replies: 29
    Topics: 19
    Join date: 2014/04/15

    Hi MadarameBK,
    Your chart and Hans answer are very helpfull to understand some things that are a little confused in the ebook.
    The chart and the Hans post helped me a lot.
    Do you have an improved version of your chart including the Hans answers?

    PS: I have one question about another situation if there is a default line:
    We are aggresor preflop, we hit TPTK on the flop bet the cbet, and get raised we call following the book.
    In the turn we still have TPTK we check/call.
    Now in the river what is the default line? Is this situation in the ebook perhaps Yes and I am missing it sorry if it is.
    Thanks a lot!

    #42428

    fiddlesticks
    Participant


    Replies: 119
    Topics: 5
    Join date: 2011/07/22

    One situation I’m still slightly confused about that the book doesn’t cover.
    We call OOP preflop and check-raise the flop with FD/OSED. What’s our move on the turn ? Not sure whether we should B/F or C/C (depending on pot odds) – any thoughts ?
    I’ll try and dig out a hand example when I get home.

    When we offer group coaching, ask me all of those questions. It would take me 30min to one hour to answer.

    Sounds interesting, any ideas when group coaching might be available ?

    #42430

    Javirap
    Participant


    Replies: 29
    Topics: 19
    Join date: 2014/04/15

    Yes, you are right that situation is not on the book and it is a question I had too.
    Reviewing this forum I found that situtaion in a question and the answe wass bet any turn.
    And it makes sense because if you hit the FD you want to get value and if not you are bluffing the turn again, like other situations you bluff 2 streets not only one.

    #42496

    Nate
    Keymaster
    Head Coach

    Replies: 1375
    Topics: 5
    Join date: 2019/09/11

    Thx@ Hans for such a good and complete answer. I have nothing to add

    It is very hard to cover every single situation possible so it is good to see questions.

    #42654

    pocketfish007
    Participant


    Replies: 594
    Topics: 83
    Join date: 2014/01/05

    talking about assisting tools.
    there are great tools outhere to draw diagrams which could help you to visualize and easier understand concepts. MadarameBK made a very nice graph but i think you guys still need to draw your owns (no matter if its based on that or not) to put in your work too because without it it won’t work.

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