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  • #467715

    pennwu2
    Participant


    Replies: 13
    Topics: 1
    Join date: 2019/04/08

    Ok, let’s go through this step by step:

    If I am in the SB, and the BB (short-stack) 3 bets me

    How short? How many BBs effective at the start of the hand? Your last line only says something about 25BBs left after 4bet.

    I can’t remember the exact amount, but I think it was 40 – 50 BBs.

    , then I can call, shove, or 4-bet:

    Well, you have a chart for what you should do here, but ok let’s assume that you don’t want to follow the charts for whatever reason.

    Yup, I 4 bet in this position because NOBS suggests 4 betting AK vs a 3 bet from the BB.

    • Call
    • Shove
    • 4-Bet
    • Fold

    I think calling against short-stack is the worst idea. I am out-of-position, and he will probably shove on any dry board.

    Why do you think he’ll shove any dry board?
    Let’s assume your opponent indeed employs this strategy. What is his 3bet range (in other words, with which range does he shove the dry boards)?

    I think my opponent’s 3 bet range is AQo+, KQo+, TT+. He’ll shove with TT+ on dry boards and maybe AK.

    If I shove instead of 4-betting, then the short-stack can call with a wider range of hands.

    Why do you think he can call wider vs a shove than vs a 4bet?

    On Ignition, I’ve found the 5 NL short-stack players will typically jam against a shove with AQo+, KQo+, TT+.

    If I 4-bet, then I’m already committed to shoving if he shoves on me.

    You mean, you’re comitted to calling when he shoves. Why would this be a problem?

    I think the villain is shoving against a 4 bet with QQ+ and AK. I think the villain would fold TT, JJ, and AQ/KQ. In other words, I think I’m giving the villain additional information about how strong my hand is by 4-betting, which is allowing him to adjust accordingly pre-flop.

    In this position, I only have 25bb left, so I’m losing money by folding in this position. The short-stack will shove on me with a tighter range of hands vs a 4-bet.

    How tight? What range do you think he stacks off here vs a 4bet?

    I think the villain is stacking off with QQ+, AK against a 4 bet.

    #467832

    pennwu2
    Participant


    Replies: 13
    Topics: 1
    Join date: 2019/04/08

    Update:

    I played poker for about 8 hours today, moving back up to NL 10. Overall, I’m down $2 for the session.

    Here’s my graphs to date:

    5 NL

    10 NL

     

    There’s a few problems I’ve identified in my 10 NL game. First, I would lose a lot of money in non show-down because I was c-betting with air and opening too big and wide in the button/SB/BB to isolate limpers. In the latter half of my second session, I’ve been more conscious of this. I c-bet the flop when I my hand has equity and/or the board is dry. I also adjust my button/SB/BB PFR ranges based on the number of limpers.

    Tomorrow

    – I don’t think I’ll have time to play poker. I have to catch up on some work.

    I’ll resume playing on Monday. My goal for next week is to play 30 hours of poker, while continuing to improve my play so it’s aligned with the NOBS strategy.

    #467869

    Rozsah
    Participant
    CFP Student

    Replies: 1124
    Topics: 34
    Join date: 2016/07/10

    I can’t remember the exact amount, but I think it was 40 – 50 BBs.

    Ok, so let’s assume 45BBs at start of the hand for now.

    You did not give his 3bet sizing, but lets assume you follow NOBS to the letter and HERO opens 2BB (you could/should be making it bigger).
    BB 3bets to 7.5BB and HERO calls. 32.5BB eff remaining.

    I think my opponent’s 3 bet range is AQo+, KQo+, TT+. He’ll shove with TT+ on dry boards and maybe AK.

    First you said your opponent probably shoves any dry board (implying with his entire 3bet range), but now you’ve “adjusted” your answer.
    BB is now no longer shoving his entire 3bet range on a dry board. Only TT+ and maybe AK. A bit unrealistic imo, but we can check out what to do in both scenarios..

    Let’s say flop comes 833r.
    We pull up equilab and and check HERO ev vs entire 3bet range on such a dry board and see we’re 50/50 vs that range.
    Vs the “value only” range we only have around 25% equity, while our pot odds are around 40%.
    What does this mean? It means that if BB is indeed shoving with practically any2 on dry boards in this spot, we snapcall and it’s profitable to do so.
    If we have enough of a sample to have stats/or read on our opponent to know that he does not have “bluffs” here, we can comfortably fold.

    On Ignition, I’ve found the 5 NL short-stack players will typically jam against a shove with AQo+, KQo+, TT+.

    You mean, they will call all-in vs your shove. Either way, this does not answer my question about why you think they call wider vs shove than vs a 4bet. You also don’t mention what they do vs a 4bet (or with what range).
    Another question in relation to your comment is, how big is your sample on 5NL ignition?
    Edit: just saw you posted your graphs to date. 12k hands is not a significant sample on a stake to know if you’re beating it. I’m pretty sure it’s also not enough of a sample to make such detailed range deductions with high accuracy from a subset of players in your pool in a low frequency spot. 

    I think the villain is shoving against a 4 bet with QQ+ and AK. I think the villain would fold TT, JJ, and AQ/KQ.In other words, I think I’m giving the villain additional information about how strong my hand is by 4-betting, which is allowing him to adjust accordingly pre-flop.

    I think you’re overestimating at how tight the stack off ranges are for short stacks in general and on micro stakes in particular.
    In a worst case scenario where BB is jamming QQ+/AK you’ll be almost break even on your call. If BB only adds AQs you already have a (marginally) profitable call.
    If they are stacking of any wider than that you have an autocall.
    On top of all this. NOBS charts and lines are created to keep things simple and be right most of the times. If a hand is good enough to stack off vs 100BBs, then it makes little sense for it not to be profitable to stack off vs a short stack.
    You can also think about it from a MTT/SNG point of view. The shorter you get, the lighter you stack off in tournaments. Not tighter.
    In other words, your assumptions for BB are likely too tight (assuming you don’t have a significant sample on him saying otherwise).

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